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I haven't PLEXed my accounts in my two yearly billing cycles because I loved the opportunity CCP gave me to fly around with my own little squadron. I wanted to support the game that brought me all of the enjoyment that it did. And I thanked CCP whenever I remembered for letting me have fun even when I was having a bad day.

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If we take two players fighting each other with two accounts each, the one with better dualboxing skills or micromanagement skills will come out on top. I believe strongly in skill at the player level. To imply otherwise is outright lying. To imply that player skill is not involved in incursion fleets, in bomber fleets, or in mining fleets, is ludicrous, and anyone who's spent a decent amount of time in the aforementioned professions will laugh you out of system local.

Instead of being a "No man" and shooting down anyone's suggestions of balance and changes to the game, why don't you try to come up with a reasonable balance to the three areas? Or are you too busy sticking your head in the sand and singing Ave Maria?

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I don't believe I ever used a false analogy. Any analogies I used were in an attempt to inform the vocal few who seem to equate boxing to botting that they were not the same, or that comparing a simple mining setup to a complicated incursion or wormhole setup was itself a false equiv fallacy.

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Well I just unsubed all 9 of my accounts. Not just because of the multiboxing thing.

Still, it'll be interesting to say the least, just to see where CCP goes with this. They could take a really hard-line stance and say "If it looks like input duplication on our side, it's input duplication, we don't care what you're doing to pull it off".

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Your continued attempts to compare multiboxing to botting is laughable at best, especially when CCP themselves have defined the two in the past in very clear words. You continue to believe that multiboxing software is "plug and play" when all it would take is two seconds of research on Youtube to see just how hard setting up ISBoxer is.

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I'm not a huge fan of many of the changes being made lately, as I've stated in other threads. That said, I'm still here, trying to adjust to the changes, because I still love the game and the friends I have here.

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Nobody "has" to get multiple accounts. Players acquire a second account because they want to do something in EVE that requires two characters to perform, but they do not want to bring in a random player. This can range from OGBs in FW, hauling toons for miners, cyno pilots for caps, sitting toons for supers, and PI toons for WH PVPers.

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I'm not going to take your word on it regarding keyboards and mice and CCP's position. I can see CCP allowing a "macro" that activates F1-FN and a seperate macro that activates CTRLF1-CTRLFN as those can be duplicated with 2 hands. But a single macro that does both? Show me a statement by CCP on that one.

We are challenging ourselves to multitask. We are testing the limits of our ability to split our attention amongst multiple windows and characters.

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Mike also explained that the 5% when the ISBoxer does make a mistake, EVERYTHING REPLICATES THAT MISTAKE. As such, there is more ISK at risk when the ISBoxer makes his 5% mistake than when 40% of the non-boxed fleet makes a mistake.

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The man is not using ISBoxer, nor was he in violation of ISBoxer. He created that setup to flaunt the fact that the ISBoxer program is not the problem. That was accomplished with tape, dowels, and some cheap penny-nails.

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But CCP *is* gutting it's revenue stream. There are some multiboxers such as myself that didn't PLEX their accounts ever because we wanted to support the game. To take away a significant chunk of the demand of a product and then claiming "We will still sell the same amount / make the same profit" is ludicrous to say the least.

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Your argument makes sense if CCP made alternate accounts free. Since a person must pay either real life $$$ or PLEX his alts, your argument falls flat on it's face as anyone can sub another toon and make more ISK than a person with one toon.

And no it may not have been banned ages ago. Seriously you keep using specious arguments to try and convince everyone that broadcasting is just peachy.

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Wasn't the drone assist limit the result of mass petitions? I forget exactly how it came about since I wasn't in a null bloc at the time.

That means 0/5987 or just UNDER 60% that things will go right. In a bombing fleet this is usually a decloak followed by death.

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But this is the wrong change to make if they want to be taken seriously as a company instead of a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. They have a rich history of looking at a problem and taking the time to find the right solution, or the best one with the legacy code, and they implement it.

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The general broadcast ban was aimed at multiple account users using any form of software to play EVE, despite not doing any research into the penalties the usage of ISBoxer incurs. I do apologize for not making enough of a distinction from multi-account users, multiboxers, ISBoxers without broadcasting, ISBoxers with broadcasting, and people who claim they have single accounts but know all about ISBoxer. I will attempt to make better distinctions in the future. I do hope you weren't triggered by my misplaced pronouns.

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If you simply fly an empty Provi, only CODE would probably gank you for the giggles. I was positing if you flew in a Provi with 20b of :stuff: in your hold.

You do realize that multiboxing is completely ok now and will be ok come January? The only thing being banned is your ability to control the swarm with one click.

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Then there are my friends in WH space that multibox WH sites. What do they do if they get dropped by a gank fleet?

Now that's just silly, no one is going to ever stop buying plex. Either they are going stockpile it, use it for game time, or additional training queues. Even then, you assume that subscriptions are in decline because multiboxers are quitting, as if they make up the majority of the player base, but even now new players are joining (they won't necessarily stay, but some will).

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Broadcasting is not unlike having a macro that activates multiple modules in a single client. It allows a player to do something that is nearly physically impossible.

I'm sorry I like to use multiple accounts to achieve better results. Nothing in the EULA against that.

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Now what's happening is people are removing their payment plans from their accounts, and are going to attempt to PLEX without broadcasting. If they cannot, they've stated in chats that they will sell all their assets from their alts, sell the toons (if possible), stash some PLEX on their primary account, and either take a break, or attempt to play EVE while singleboxing. Again, this is just from the few I've talked to (around ten or so). Judging from this thread and the reddit thread, there's anywhere from 20-40 more who I've not talked to. Some of us are just going to try to find a new game, while others will become "that bittervet in local".

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Yeah, great, but that has nothing to do with the change here and does nothing to address any benefits of broadcasting for incursions. That isk sink manifests proportionally for everyone to their LP gains meaning on a single character scale non market incomes go down but creates the posibility that with 10 incomes the isk portion will still be sufficient to not bother as it still meets a total income goal. A good change in itself, but again does nothing to affect the same thing this change is aimed at.

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Look, think of ISBoxer as a movie. Most people only see the outcome on the silver screen in the movie theater, or on their TV, and enjoy it as an end result of "stuff".

As to the defender thing, I merely mentioned that because if i didn't, what would happen if someone in a site gets dropped? WOuld he have to take the losses without trying to defend himself?

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It may come about that the only "safe" way to pull it off is to implement a realistic delay between each input, that generally matches the time it'd take for someone to alt-tab and issue each command to each separate window. Doing that takes away a big chunk of what makes input duplication powerful though (which may be exactly what CCP is gunning for).

Can CCP please clarify to their GMs that this new policy isn't going to be in effect until Jan 1st? There are reports of multiboxers already being banned for broadcasting, and re-petitions being closed.

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Actually he used the term bot aspirant correctly. And given that CODE coined the term, I'd be prepared to take their definition over yours pretty much any day.

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As I've mentioned, I have not seen a proper argument set out by CCP or anyone else that supports the ban other than "muh feelings". If you would like to bring to my attention a valid reason, by all means, go ahead. But please stop circling around whenever I ask for a real reason by saying "you'll just ignore it". If your reason, and Kell's, is that it allows massive alpha strikes, why is it that ISBoxers are the only ones capable of such alpha strikes? Many if not all of the gank mails with non-boxers using Tornados achieved their kill with a coordinated alpha strike before the target could activate an appreciable tank after decloaking off a gate or undocking. Shall we ban gankers simply because someone "may" pull off a 140k alpha strike with 9 of his buddies in Tornados?

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TIL: Attempting to defend multiboxing is trolling. You've clearly not spent any effort in reading this thread. You just grabbed a pitchfork and rushed to the castle because the village idiot claims he saw dark magic going on when it was simply science.

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But to the topic of this thread, on principle it seems wrong to allow third-party software or hardware to provide an advantage to players. It should be prohibited, but I would hate to see more players banned for something they didn't do so I trust that CCP is able to detect this behaviour accurately. I lack the information to judge whether this behaviour is technically possible to detect accurately, but if they can, clearly CCP should enforce this part of the existing EULA.

If CCP is going to let us log in our set at once using ISBoxer, then this is not that big of a deal. Please, think with the head on your shoulders.

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EVE is (was) one of the last places that allowed unrestricted multiboxing. WoW restricts it to non-PVP usage, LOTRO recently banned it (if I remember correctly), DDO has no follow or assist command and the targeting system there is poor. Now that EVE has all but banned ISBoxer and similar software, many are now wondering why they're bothering to pay or sub their accounts for EVE when games like Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen are coming out soon.

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Except that botting (a program w/o person behind keyboard) has always been strictly against the EULA since day 1 as it requires no player input. ISBoxing is simply on the table because someone spilled their milk and, instead of thinking about how they could stop milk being spilled in the future, ran up to mommy and cried about it and demanded that he get a brand new cup of milk.

Now, if CCP were truly evil, they'd implement a sort of "pause" feature for client windows that aren't the active window on the desktop. Don't know if they could do that technically, but setting the client up so that in order to receive commands, it must be the active "clicked-on" window would make input duplication a tad more difficult to pull off.

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If you feel that strongly about it - then unsub. We don't care and we won't miss you.

Comparing setting up something as simple as a mining fleet to incursion setups or wormhole setups is akin to taking a child's finger-paint art and attempting to enter it to The Louvre. If setting up a mining fleet was as simple as you described, there would be hundreds of these setups roaming around mining belts and ice. Once again, ISBoxer is NOT plug-and-play. It isn't and will not be no matter how many times you say it is.

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CCP has stated countless times in the past that the "accelerated gameplay" clause was on a PER TOON BASIS. If you continue to believe differently, send them a ticket or spend 30 seconds looking through all the old "PLZ BAN ISBOXER MY FEELINGS WERE HURT" threads.

But oddly I have been talking about the so called end to the issue, but have been clear that this is far more direct and addresses different manifestations of the issue better. If you think I'm wrong give me something other than self righteous soapboxing.

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When Pantheon Slowcats and Boot Domis were FOTM, CCP didn't remove sentries or nerf carriers into the ground. They sensibly balanced the mechanic (drone assist) so you couldn't get 250+ Archons assisting 1250 Gardes to a single Loki.

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A clear, unequivical statement that multiboxing is allowed. However, I realize that some people think that software is required to multibox. A lot of those people are posting in this thread.

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Many ISBoxers are members of alliances and communities. It's very hard to be the equivalent of the lone gung-ho elite special forces in a game such as this. Even bomber boxers are members of an alliance and interact with others.

As to the reason, it's again the multiplied capabilities of a single player. There is of course contention as far as where the extent of that divide lies, but that still moves well beyond the point of having no reason and into questioning efficacy. Even that statement that you don't believe capabilities at the player level shouldn't be a consideration that still leaves an actual acknowledgement for reasoning, but a disagreement with that reasoning.

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The 3rd party tools part was and has always been talking about bots that require no input. I've told you a dozen times to do your own research yet you continue to ignore it to satisfy some bizarre hateboner against boxers.

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We put together a few sample systems to show how the game performed using real-world computers. Our slowest machine, a 3/0GHz Pentium 4 paired with a GeForce 6800, choked out a barely playable result at the lowest quality settings and ran a slide show at the pace of one frame every 10 seconds when we tried increasing the settings. Our single-core AMD Athlon 64 4000+ paired with a Radeon X1650 XT performed surprisingly well at the highest quality settings, but we did have to relax a few of them to get the system to play nicely. The dual-core AMD Athlon 64 FX-60 paired with the Radeon X1900 XT 256MB ran the game at a more than playable frame rate with maximum quality. Both of our Intel Core 2 rigs ran the game just fine and could handle even higher resolution, as well as antialiasing settings.

The only way you get only that is if you don't read what's being posted to you. It also requires some level of intentional blindness to the fact that assisted multiboxing is less effort intensive that unassisted multiboxing.

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So, real life dudes face a 40% error rate while the ISBoxer faces a 5% error rate. And note, all the players have, individually, the exact same error rate.

ISBoxer has been a part of EVE for a very long time. If it was thought to be detrimental to the health of EVE, it would have been banned ages ago. As it stands, it's both too much of an integral part of EVE much the way 3rd party fitting tools, Siggy, and EVEMon are, as well as not being a bot or against the EULA as it still requires a person behind the keyboard.

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Multiboxing has always been open to anyone who wanted to give it a shot. The fact that there is currently a mob of idiots running around who would have you believe that we are a community with the same level of power and closed-offness as the likes of the Illuminati, and believe that we are bots simply because we took the time to sit down and work on a challenge.

Aimbots use the program's code as a weapon, automatically centering your crosshairs on the designated part of your enemy, most popular being the head, when the aimbot program calculates that you have line-of-sight on the target. ISBoxer does nothing of the sort.

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I'd love to know your definition of "soapboxing" because as far as I can tell, you apply it to anyone who presents an argument against the ban that isn't two sentences long. Just because a change is direct, or made with the best intentions, doesn't mean it's good, or that it will work as intended, or that it was targeting the right problem. If I think CCP is making a change for the wrong reasons or that will have the wrong outcome, I will say something, and I will attempt to posit other ideas or changes that may be, not necessarily *better*, but finer tuned than the sledgehammer approach.

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Making a bad change for all the right reasons is still a bad change. These same people who would have CCP remove broadcasting would also have CCP remove any non-consensual PVP in highsec, and remove scams.

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As for dying just by virtue of flying around in a Providence, no, that's not true at all. Some people actually know how to fly freighters and haulers using proper caution and risk mitigation. We call it the "idiot tank" - we tank ourselves with stupid people, who are much easier targets.

We still have basic combat mechanics pushing us in the direction of coordinated actions. That being the case how do we ensure multiple client roles in low number/single player activities involving purely combat? Missions for instance or most incursion sites currently being boxed. Even in the case we do assure multiple roles how do we prevent clients in a pure combat role from being boxed by a single individual, or do we not care about broadcasting if a second person is in the fleet?

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A fleet of 20 'nados managed by one person manually handling each client vs a fleet of 20 'nados managed by 20 players is at a severe disadvantage due to his or her divided attention. That changes the moment he or she no longer has to divide their attention, and can just push F1 once to fire 160 1400mm cannons simultaneously.

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Every time you use "ISBotter" you further prove your ignorance as to what ISBoxer is, and the difference between an ISBoxer and a bot. It's two different things that both use a similar mechanism. To put it in layman's terms, you're calling a Hummer an Italian luxury car simply because they both have wheels and an engine.

Every time I made a general statement about EVE you took it to mean I was talking to just you. It physically hurt to read your error-filled paragraphs, but I somehow did it.

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You are the one that suggested people might leave to go play other games that aren't out yet I just supported them in that should they choose to take that route. I never told anyone to quit you where the one that suggested there might not a reason to play this game anymore.

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Those are free to anyone that wants to use them. There is no barrier to the use of those programs.

This is strange considering how much time and effort people have put into understanding EVE's code in general, to the point of constructing 3rd party programs and websites to both assist their understanding, and to do further research. Banning a subset of EVE with the argument "because they spend more time theorycrafting" is silly to say the least.

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From personal experience the risks of multiboxing are often well outshined by the rewards even without assistance from outside tools. Adding those tools, which also expands the number of clients that can be reasonably multiboxed, skews that balance a great deal further. It can't really be reasonably argued that tool assisted multiboxing is riskier or less rewarding than non-assisted multiboxing.

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I guess we will have to disagree. I'm willing to sit at the table and listen to your arguments so long as they aren't "muh feelings", and you aren't willing to sit and talk unless you get to talk about "muh feelings". CCP has proven they are happy changing "one" thing that targeted a subset of their playerbase that would involve the rest of the players.

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CCP is removing a feature that does not let you stand up from your keyboard and leave while it continues to perform actions under the misguided banner of anti-bot activity. Removing input broadcasting for multiboxers adds a layer of complication that we are not willing to put up with.

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You're implying that PLEX increasing is relatively recent and is only caused by multiboxed accounts when CCP themselves admitted that less plex was being moved on the market. PLEX is a consumable item that has had it's demand increase thanks to dual character training and there are many people who hoard hundreds if not thousands of PLEX like it was gold. In this case correlation =/= causation.

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There are many things that can go wrong with a boxer's fleet. You can have crystals fail to reload, guns can "false cycle", you can get jammed and miss your web, you can start targeting your alts, you can fail to lock a target and mess up your webs and thus have to unlock everything and re-lock, etc.

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See, that's the wonderful thing about this forum. You don't have to take my word for it. Take it from CCP. There's a search bar to the upper right of the window.

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A reduction of the effectiveness of multiboxed bomber and suicide ganking gangs. Players will accept losing to other players. Players hate losing to software. Okay, victims of suicide ganks in high sec for the most part will always complain. But I don't think CCP sees the ability of one player to destroy 100 ships in a few seconds or a minute as a good thing. If CCP found the titan's AoE doomsday overpowered, does anyone think that the devs might find the AoE bombs of a couple of bomber gangs under the control of one player any more acceptable? After all, what's the difference between an AoE titan and a couple of squads of bombers? Oh yeah, several billion ISK less risk for the multiboxer over the titan pilot.

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CCP is actively limiting our playstyle via the worst way possible. If people have a problem with ISBoxer and the way it's being used right now, (and I've seen more complaints and people quitting because of the local CODE monkeys than a 10-man skiff fleet) then what's to say CCP won't start limiting accounts active in the future? CCP is attempting to appease a vocal minority by implementing a massive change, and whenever a company listens to the vocal minority instead of attempting to get a poll from a greater majority of the playerbase and act upon it, bad things happen.

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No, you can't have my stuff and I am not 100% quitting EVE. I'd like to thank CCP for the opportunity to multibox EVE.

Because it wasn't a violation of the EULA at the time. By your logic, anyone who has ever jumped a carrier any distance over 5 ly was using an illegal method.

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Again, you seem to be one of those who makes no effort to distinguish between an ISBoxer with a human behind the keyboard, and a botter with an empty chair. Please sit in the corner till you are willing to do so.

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As for freighter low slots, I recall there being a consensus among gankers that this would actually make ganking easier as haulers can't seem to resist putting those expanded cargoholds on and anti-tanking their haulers as actually turned out to be the case. Perhaps I am just remembering what I want to remember as well.

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I'm just tired of the whining masses that react like preschoolers when CCP does something they don't like, toss their toys out of the pram on the forums, but when the rubber meets the road they just keep on doing what they were doing while sulking in the corner and muttering under their breath. The amount of illogical arguments I have seen put forward in this discussion thread (from both sides of the table mind) would be enough to write a case study. I've seen appeals to emotion, slippery slope, appeals to tradition, false dichotomies, and a half dozen other fallacious arguments - and that's just in the last dozen pages.

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Do you think they put it in escrow until that PLEX's item ID is consumed or something? I can't find anything that even remotely suggests this is how it works.

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The best example in my mind is the drone assist upper limit of 50 per target. There was an issue raised by a vocal subset of the EVE playerbase (unlimited drones being triggered by a single Loki or Huginn), and there was an array of changes they could've done. They could have removed drone assist outright, they could hard-cap it, they could've left it untouched and said "Everything is working fine". If they chose to remove it completely, they would've been impacting more than just the slowcat fleets. If they left it alone, they would've seen a massive surge in Pantheon / slowcat fleets, and the minimum bar for holding SOV in nullsec would be that much higher. Instead, they capped it at 50, a reasonable number that would prevent the massive carrier blobs while letting small fleet gatecamps, roams, incursion, and wormhole fleets work just fine with minimal effort required to change procedure.

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No one is saying you can't complain. Why is it that we can't call you out for how childish it is, and point out all the flaws in your position?

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You see, if it is so little impact, then why is there a threadnaught of goonie tears about it? You bring so many reasons why it shouldn't be here, yet here it is. You do seem like the kind of pal with problems in facing the objective reality, but even you can't deny a tear thread while posting in it.

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I suppose I'm just being a crotchety old man, but this happens every time CCP announces changes that negatively impact a popular play style. The nano-nerf, jump fatigue, freighter slots. I expect it will happen again when they finally get around to deciding what to do about the Ishtar. I know it will happen when they finally announce their plans for Sov 3/0.

I was mostly referring to the ability to quickly purchase a 200m sp god-toon in a relatively short amount of time. PLEX in and of itself is not P2W itself.

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So here we have to agree to disagree as to whether pointing out the intentional creation of nuisances is constructive or sidestepping. We'll also have to agree to disagree with the concept that an action taken by a subset of players should be addressed by involving the whole player base in a non beneficial change.

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Except that's one of the problems. With VFX I can stack 50 modules side-by-side and hammer my mouse button as I go down the row. Round Robin can go as fast as you can hammer a key on a keyboard which, given what some people can pull off with enough practice, can be pretty damn fast.

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CCP is attempting to treat a severed femoral artery with a band-aid. CCP needs to nerf or balance the usefullness of the weapon systems and ships that are the underlying cause of the sickness and the symptoms will go away. I mentioned several such balance passes or options that would work tremendously. Namely, mining minigame for active miners, 4-digit code for bombs, and lowering isk while increasing LP for incursions.

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Spend 30 seconds out of your life and look at previous DEV and GM responses to threads regarding the clause and keyboard macros and you will see, time and time again, responses that say that the clause is on a per-toon basis. Ever since I signed up my alt toons, I've taken a special interest in threads regarding ISBoxing and keyboard macros (g510 and g600 here) and everytime somebody with a 2 month old character age came onto the forums and starts whining that multiboxing breaks the clause, someone from CCP or a GM steps in and slapped them down.

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I don't have the numbers on all the multiboxers in EVE, but we had somewhere around 250 accounts in one "chat". That's 250 less PLEX being used each month.

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You don't have to have multiple accounts. Just like you don't have to get a titan, or enter a WH, or challenge oneself to PVP with frigates only. People acquire multiple characters because they want to do more/different things. Some people get a new toon and send it into a wormhole to try something they've never done before to challenge themself.

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Why should I HAVE to get multiple accounts? Because if I needed multiple accounts to play the game then why not just charge $30 a month and get two characters available for simultaneous logging? They don't do that though, they charge $15 for one, which tells me I should only need one.

Your phrasing was poor, so of course I misunderstood what you were trying to say, however that doesn't change the fact that you're attempting to deny them the opportunity to voice their concerns and ask CCP to change something that they see as detrimental. Thankfully, CCP's forums do not work that way.

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Niarja spawns, jams one logi, heavy spawn shoots the other. You have a very, very small window of opportunity to un-mess your situation. This is one instance where public fleets have an advantage as they can lock each other with spare highslot reps much easier and with much less danger of shooting each other than a VG boxer. They also don't have to deal with multitasking 10 separate accounts and staying alive.

Call of Duty 4 will run on a lot of older video cards, but a GPU upgrade will go a long way if you're looking for more performance. Frame rates increase as you give the game more video card power. It's a straight game of how much you're willing to spend.

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